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In episode one, lightning protection expert Allen Hall discusses advances in aircraft lightning protection throughout aviation history. We also dive into Boeing’s recent trouble with the 737 Max and what this means for the aviation industry.
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Podcast Transcript
Dan: Welcome this is the first episode of the Struck Podcast I’m your co-host Dan Blewett and I am joined here by lightning protection expert Allen Hall. Allen how are you?
Allen: Hey Dan, how are you doing?
Dan: Doing well, doing well So we are here both self
isolating in separate cities. I’m here in Washington DC and you’re in the on
the border of Vermont over on the Massachusetts side. So yeah how’s everything going up there?
Allen: It’s snowing we’re gonna get eight inches of snow today. It’s one of those freak March storms. I guess is today the first day of spring? It’s got to be close to it right?
Dan: Yeah yeah
Allen: But we’re so far north it’s still winter time until about mid April so we’re sort of self isolating via snowstorm today
Dan: Gotcha. So here on the struck podcast we’re gonna talk
about everything aviation lightning protection because Allen here is the CEO of
Weather Guard Lightning Tech, which is a lightning protection company and
you’ve been in this industry for over twenty plus years
Allen: Yeah
Dan: Lightning protection in both the aviation industry and on wind turbine so you’ve seen a lot of the evolution of this in the field.
Allen: Oh yeah we’ve seen a lot of changes in my lifetime and it’s one of those things that we’ve been doing some research on here in our company and kind of going back through some of the history and it’s fascinating to see how much has changed in the last 50 years from airplanes falling out of the sky, big airplanes falling out of the sky, to where we are now, which it’s a pretty rare event which is where it’s way it should be right I mean we should be evolving over time getting smarter and learning you know what’s right and what’s wrong and we’ve made huge progress but it doesn’t mean there’s not a lot more to go and there is.
Dan: Yeah and you know we think of all these different modes of transportation and we think of flying being this big scary thing because we’re obviously huge you know so heavy bird up in the sky but yet they’re incredibly safe and I think that’s owed to all the engineers and the regulations and you know with even just the little things you have swapping out a new part for a plane maybe one that wears out like there’s just a lot of steps you have to go to to just make sure the new part that goes in there is as good or better as the previous and you can’t just throw anything on there there’s no cobbling together an airplane like you could maybe a used car
Allen: Right
Dan: and that’s really there’s a lot of sense.
Allen: Yeah just because the safety aspects involved and
it’s a combination of obviously the people who design airplanes getting smarter
and having a lot of computational ability helps in that and then just the
process has changed over time where we’re much more focused on looking at
safety and looking at probabilities of safety and in delving deep deep deep
into systems and deep deep deep into aircraft structure and to test it and make
sure that it’s going to do what we think it’s going to do as we go forward. So
there’s tons and tons and thousands and thousands and thousands of man-hours
that go into making an airplane anymore and in you know roughly a pretty much
any airplane program it’s going to be several hundred million dollars to
billions of dollars to get developed before it first even really gets out in
the field. There’s a lot of money, a lot of effort to make those airplane safe,
thank goodness.
Dan: Yeah and so for you as a lightning protection expert you know where does this all start? I know that one of the first recorded lightning strikes on aircraft was on a German Zeppelin back in 1915 and the thing just basically just got annihilated right there in front of a lot of people and I said wow I guess you know aviation was new at that point and so like okay that’s a thing that happens so where to kind of go from there?
Allen: So we sort of evolved over time especially as the aircraft’s evolved over time right so the first generation of aircraft or just because of power plant issues and not having enough thrust is that the airplanes are made out of wood and it’s available material we knew a lot about it we were building homes out of wood we built a lot of things out of wood, we’re building cars out of wood! So we had an industry that was focused on making things out of wood and even up until well all the way to the 1930s through the Great Depression and into the early 1940s I mean most of those airplanes are made out of wood significant portions and they’re making out of wood. And then we were learning that the aircraft were getting struck and they were getting struck enough where the aircraft crashes or a regular current so it wasn’t surprising when an airplane went down they think of all the famous people :Will Rogers, Knute Rockne, all the people that had died in airplane crashes. So it wasn’t surprising when there was an airplane crash because they were still in the sort of the infancy of the industry there was the pilot skills all those kind of things but over time as airplanes became metal, we started to realize that “Man, maybe their craft were causing the lightning strikes maybe they’re involved more than we think that they are and maybe we should be doing something about it” and that’s when the shift started it was when we realized that we could do something about it.
Dan: So that all kind of kicked off with not actually a
commercial airliner but the Space Shuttle, right? That’s where they started to
really kind of get wind that maybe these planes were causing the lightning
strikes which is a really I don’t think that’s the way anyone in just the
general population thinks about lightning. They kind of think about it as I was
in a field and it started to rain there’s a thunderstorm I got unlucky in it
and it struck me right, but the planes actually caused it.
Allen: Yeah so the one strike that I think it’s mostly because that the whole world was focused on at the time was the Apollo 12 launch where they were headed and just leaving the Cape Canaveral and they were I don’t know 15 30 seconds into flight and the spacecraft got struck, well the rocket got struck, and it got struck again a couple of seconds later so it got struck twice! A lot of the systems and the spacecraft went haywire while the guidance stuff in the capsule itself the rocket, the rocket has its own guidance systems thank goodness in the Saturn fives and so the Saturn 5 rocket continued to do what it was going to do because all of its instrumentation things are kind of buried deep down inside of the big metal structure but the capsule and the in the control systems in the capsule and that power distribution systems in the capsule went crazy and shut down. So you know if you’re seen about a big alarm that’s a sort of a worldwide broadcast of sort of American ingenuity just going hey wire there on launch and it’s sort of a started a chain reaction in the United States and around the world quite honestly of “hey we need to understand what’s going on here” because in the Apollo 12 thing there wasn’t any indication that lightning was going to strike. There hadn’t been any lightning strikes in the area and until they launched that rocket and then it happened. So you know it got ” wow aircraft could trigger lightning” and then it started a whole chain of engineering evaluations and flight tests and NASA’s evolving a bunch and there’s a lot of other countries involved and figuring out like “Hey lightning is not sort of a random event. Aircraft are actually triggering it and the bigger they get the more likely they’re going to trigger all these lightning events” and “what do they look like, how much energy are in them, can they effects systems”. Obviously in the Apollo 12 incident it affected a bunch of systems and you know the next generation, once the Apollo’s got started they new they were going to shut them down pretty quickly and you start with a space shuttle so now now we’re making this big flying spacecraft thing that looks like an airplane they’re gonna have to land it somewhere. What happens if it gets struck by lightning? So there’s there’s a lot of emphasis by a lot of government agencies to go figure out what was going on and you know if there had been tragedies from the 40s and 50s into the 60s in 1960 there’s a 63 as a big accident there even into the 70s there are some big accidents happening on aircraft and we as an industry didn’t do all that much about them. It’s kind of an assumed thing like you know it’s a risky business. And we got out of that sort of test pilot it’s a risky business thing too like we need this to be safer than it is and it’s not rocket science so to speak it’s not a rocket science thing it’s just gonna take a lot of work and development and that’s where the changes really happened.
Dan:Yeah well and what’s really interesting is you know there were still crashes I mean and last year there was a Russian jet that got struck by lightning just after takeoff and the pilot said he felt lost a loss of control yeah circle back was you know way too heavy with fuel. They bounced on their landing and the back half the plane caught on fire and half of the passengers died the ones in the back half the plane unfortunately. And the front half got out, but I mean even now there’s still very isolated incidences but it still happens which is crazy.
Allen: Yeah it’s crazy that it happens and a lot of it not naming specific incidences but a lot of it is that they didn’t think about it obviously in any modern aircraft today there’s been a lot of work done to make sure that a lightning strike doesn’t take the airplane down. But there’s also people in the process the pilots are in the process right so you’re relying upon the pilots to make decisions in real time when they’re under a lot of stress and you know the big thing that we talk about and sort of in the lightning community I know that some discussions going on about this now is you know is: What do you expect the pilot to do when you get hit by lightning and all these lights and buzzers start going off even though you can fly the airplane the airplane can get back down to earth safely you know that that’s all great but what happens and how do they respond to those incidences. I think that’s what we’re learning a lot about whether the lightning protection systems and plans and the way we think things are going to happen we may make assumptions that aren’t necessarily right. And I think the accident that happened in Russia is one of those cases where I think that what I’ve seen after that is that the pilot said there’s a lot of things going on you know I lost comms, and maybe I lost navs, I lost some flight control stuff all this stuff starts to happen and I got to fly the airplane and now I’m in a thunderstorm and it’s raining and all this stuff’s going on. How do I respond out of that? Well you know it’s not easy and to assume every pilots should be able to land, that’s not the case right. When put in pressure situations like that you don’t necessarily know how they’re going to respond and in that case it wasn’t a good ending right? And from a lightning engineering perspective, we need to think about that. We need to think like “Are we doing do we want to light up bells and lights go off in the cockpit? Probably not you know and if there been probably a couple different design changes it may not has been as many bells and warnings and lists systems going offline, yeah. So obviously we put a lot of time and effort to ensure we’re making an airplane safe, but we also have to sort of get that feedback we can’t be working out of out of a hole all the time and not listening to what’s going on on the world around us and I think that’s where we’re starting to get, thank goodness right. So airplanes are getting safer obviously we’re taking these things and learning from it and you may see regulation change based on what happened in Russia. You’re going to see regulation changes based on a lot of things that have happened to make the airplanes more safe and to sort of think about the airplane not as an engineering project but as a as a real safety concern and that you treat it that way and we’ll see. You know I think my attitude about the aircraft industry has been for a longest time it still has its flight test test pilot moments. And I’m not sure that we want to be there much longer you know we can’t all be Chuck Yeager’s and assume Chuck Yeager’s flying the airplane. Can’t do that. We need to be and we can’t assume that pilots have thousands of hours and military service before they get into the seat of any Airbus, Boeing, Embraer, Bombardier airplane, Mitsubishi whatever, because those days are gone, right? So the pilots coming out of the out of the military, having all kinds of training experience are gone. A lot of people are doing it on their own time and becoming pilots because they love flying I’m not sure we’ve taken into consideration all the time on the safety aspect I know we’ve thought about it I know the FAA is going through a process right now about that, but everybody’s got to do that it’s not just the lightning group, it’s got to be everybody putting their two cents in to make the airplane safer. Yeah so I want to cover the some of the current stuff that’s going on with Boeing right now, obviously it’s not lightning related, but you know industry a very big deal for the industry but yeah before we do that I’d like to hear just a couple of the standard lightning production things that a plane is equipped with.
Dan:So you know one for example that I thought is really fascinating
is that as fuel tanks empty you know they’re pumped within an inert gas usually
I think nitrogen and that fills the excess space that used to be taken up by
full by fuel so that those fuel vapors are harmless, which is crazy because
planes used to blow up that way you know that’s one of the things back in the
day. Even just you know I think ten years ago you know if there was an errant
spark you know that gap somewhere on the plane it could ignite fuel vapors
inside these tanks so that’s a really fascinating feat of engineering that
they’re flooding these tanks with inert gas to keep them safe. So what are some
of the other ones that you know the average passenger is not aware of that’s
keeping them safe as they fly?
Allen: Well I think a lot of it is stuff you cannot see right as you walk up to the airplane if you ever get the chance to actually use air stairs instead of a jet way to go to an airplane one of the things you’ll notice is if you get close to it you realize like there’s a lot of stuff on this airplane alright there’s a lot of little little features that are on it. And the lightning protection tends to be one of those little features that you don’t necessarily see all the time so like on the 787, because it’s a carbon fiber airplane, there’s a lot of protection things done to protect the carbon fiber structure, which is kind of resistive, it’s not aluminum. There’s a lot of work done on the electronic system and the power distribution systems that keep it so there’s protection devices that actually sit there and sense when lightning energy is coming and divert it safely to ground and away from the the way the electronics work. There’s a lot of work done in the software even to keep the software from getting upset when the lightning hits the airplane and there’s electrical transients bouncing around the airplane the software a lot of cases just ignores it right so it’s things you don’t see for the most part on an airplane and the inerting system is one of those things that has come about after you know saluted the TWA 800 event in the mid-90s outside New York City where there was just a vapor space, there was a empty fuel tank and then for whatever reason there was some sort of spark we’re not sure exactly what that spark was, but it led off an empty fuel tank and you know then there was a big push to put in inerting systems and I’ve worked on some of those inerting systems over time. They’re really slick they take some of the engine air, essentially bleed air, and shove it through a filter that separates the oxygen molecules from the nitrogen molecule. So it’s not pure nitrogen that’s going in there it’s just less oxygen going into the tank so you take away you know in order to have a fire you need a fuel and you need something to spark essentially right so you’re taking away that fuel you making that fuel air combination at the wrong mixture so it doesn’t want to ignite. That’s a little trick there but you know that technology is not that new, it’s been around for quite a while but I think it’s just the impetus of “hey we can’t assume we’ve gotten rid of all the sparks or things that can go spark in a fuel tank” and I think that’s just it that we just haven’t quite done that yet. And the inerting systems cover when we miss things or there’s some sort of maintenance miss and even the regulations that happen after that really changed the way we thought about fuel tanks. We started looking at failure modes and failure modes on failure modes and then failure modes on failure modes on failure modes so you cascade failure modes and get to a place where it is possible to to have a fuel vapor ignition. Those are big huge leaps and from an engineering standpoint it’s a ton of work. It’s a ton of work especially the first time you have to go do it you know you’re starting off with an empty prairie of space that you’ve gotta go occupy you figure out like okay what happens if… And it forces everybody to go back and sort of take a deeper look and I think that’s okay right I think that that’s okay that we get forced back into thinking about complex problems and see if we can make some improvements and we have. I think we honestly have, I think the airplane is gonna be or are obviously safer than they’ve ever been and that’s the way it should be.
Dan: Yeah so there’s obviously besides just fuel tank
ignition there’s so there’s lightning diverters there’s lots of other little
things what are just just a quick run-through because we’ll have much deeper
discussions on future episodes but what are some of the other just run off the top
of your fingertips: what are some of the other features of lightning
protection?
Allen: So if we if you work front to back on the airplane so on the front of the airplane there is typically some sort of lightning diverter, segmented lightning diverter, like our product Strike Tape and then as you get into the cockpit there’s all kinds of shielding and wiring protection and things of that sort. On the outside of the airplane there’s a big industry now which is metal foils on the outside of the airplane that make the airplane from a plastic airplane into some sort of plastic metal combo. And then as you get into the wings obviously there’s things to prevent lightning sparking into the fuel tank: sealants and paints and coatings and plastics and other things like that and just all kinds of technology and fuel tanks today. And as you get further into the cabin area all the anything that you’re around and as a passenger in there is connected electrically and grounded so that you’re not exposed to any sort of transient voltages or anything it’s gonna shock you if the aircraft gets struck. And then as you get toward the back of the airplane there’s a lot of systems in the back of the airplanes typically that you don’t think about and like even like the toilets, I mean the toilets on an airplane are very complicated systems quite honestly. The pressurization systems those kind of things tend to be in the backs of the airplane there’s a tons of technology that go into each one of those to keep those things operating. And power plants, same thing on the engines there’s all kinds of all kinds of techniques and technology and those things to keep everything up and running. And you know it’s evolved a lot as obviously as we’ve become more of a computerized electronic society. And even in our personal lives we pretty much have an electronic devices of some sort on us at all times, maybe a watch a phone, air pods, you name it. We also have that same sort of thing go on inside the airplane, so we’re taking that technology and implementing it inside the aircraft and for lightning protection so there’s a ton of a ton of work. In fact one of the kind of when people ask me like what much of the cost to put the lightning protection in airplane and how much is a way I may have the big one is a weight one right? It’s roughly one percent of the aircraft weight you know maybe three percent somewhere in there and same thing about cost. If an airplane costs a billion dollars to certify you’re probably spending 10 million or so on the lightning protection: one percent. It’s a lot of money yeah, it makes a big impact a million dollars is still a lot of money.
Dan: Well ’cause every commercial airliner is gonna get struck once a year on average right? It’s like once every thousand flight hours, is that right?
Allen: Yeah a typical transport jet’s gonna fly 2,500 hours this year so yeah I mean it’s roughly once a year maybe twice a year mostly airplanes will get struck and it all depends on where you’re flying at obviously but it’s not rare and a lot of people who fly for work have been in an aircraft that have been struck probably multiple times in depending how much you fly. So it’s a very very common thing to happen.
Dan: Gotcha so let’s speak a little bit about the Boeing
situation that’s going on right now obviously the 737 max had tons of problems.
So as you know an industry insider you know what’s your take on that whole
situation?
Allen: So obviously it’s a tragic situation. There’s no way of looking at that problem where you don’t think “Man, there’s just been all kinds of things that have just cascaded into a problem and then led to you know the loss of life”, which is just you know something that the industry and everybody grieves about. I think the thing where we’re seeing and obviously we don’t have first-hand knowledge right I think that’s one of the things that when these events happen you get a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking that happens but having been on the inside and watched a lot of different aircraft companies develop their airplanes and particularly the safety groups and how they have worked in the last ten years or so, they’re really really spinning uber amounts of time trying to get the safety aspects right and looking at probabilities of component failures and looking at obvious failure modes that can exist and how those can cascade into other problems. And I have a hard time when I see some of the some of the newspaper articles or typically the things you read from Seattle tend to be you know obviously kind of quasi pro-Boeing maybe you can say it that way, but I think you get it a little more inside baseball from news up in Seattle but it isn’t like people are sleeping on the job. I don’t think that happened. I think that everybody was trying to do their best to make this system safe and you can criticize him after the fact about “did they have enough sensors going into to make the system work properly”. Obviously if they had to do it over again they’d have more sensors connected to the system so it would have less chance of reacting, but I think there’s also sort of that pilot interaction problem which they assumed that if there was a problem with the system that the pilots would respond in this particular case it’s a horizontal stabilizer trim. Horizontal stabilizer trim makes the airplane go up and down and makes it flies so that you don’t have a lot of control forces on the control stick. So you can move the horizontal stabilizer up and down it’s similar to the elevator which is just behind it so it makes the nose go up and down and so if you can move the horizontal stabilizer up and down, it just makes it airplane fly a little bit smoother and is from automated systems the automated systems tend to control the horizontal stabilizer not the elevator. So when the MCAS system in this particular case decides that it’s getting sensor input saying it’s got to push the nose down it starts driving the horizontal stabilizer to drive the nose down. That’s no different than a lot of other failure modes that can happen that can cause the same thing. Now how they originate doesn’t really matter at that point if you have a horizontal stabilizer doing something that you don’t like the way that the 737 appears to be set up is there’s a switch to turn it on and in some cases it seems like some pilots knew that and turned off the horizontal stabilizer so it couldn’t do that. And so at that point you’re sort of flying the airplane by hand a little bit or if you kicked on the autopilot I think the autopilot would ignore the MCAS system and continue to fly the airplane. It just happened to be you got a pilot that reacted differently. That Boeing hadn’t thought that they would react differently and I think that’s where the disconnect is is that the safety people who’d done analysis and look the probabilities of the chances it happening would be extremely remote and they ran into a situation where they had a lot of sensors that had gone bad and pilots who didn’t know how to necessarily react to the way the airplane was handling it. That leads up to from a safety standpoint to sort of an unknown outcome. And then that’s where the problem lies is that you’ve got so many people from different parts of the world flying airplanes and you’ve got design groups who are thinking one thing and pilots may be thinking another. That’s where we’re gonna see a lot of the training things pop in and that’s that’s where eásá and the FAA and Transport Canada and a lot of the certifying organizations are starting to say “hey maybe when you go back and take a look at pilot training and get the pass a little more up-to-date on some of this stuff” and that’s probably good move whether they needed it or not at the beginning you know I think if you’d asked anybody in the industry they would say probably no. I mean if a horizontal stabilizer starts to misbehave, turn it off there’s a switch right by right in the center console to turn this thing off. And there’s indicators down there that tell you its moving so it isn’t like you don’t know what’s happening you can clearly see what’s happening it’s just how you respond to it. And I think that’s where we in the lightning area need to take that into consideration because we also deal with systems and electronics that can misbehave and if they do misbehave we have to go look at what those consequences are and in some instances we assume that the pilot always makes the right move. That the pilot knows exactly what to go do every single time and I don’t think ,and I think this 737 thing kind of proves it out, the pilots always know exactly what to do. So having less chaos in the cockpit is always a good thing obviously right so we are trying to push ourselves into less chaos and things that we’re doing in my opinion things we do on the lightning side and should lead to less chaos. The airplane should still be flyable, it should be simple to get it into a flyable mode, we shouldn’t have a lot of bells and warnings and I think that’s one of the things that’s changing. I heard of the day where they’re talking about the number of audio tones that are happening or interfering with the pilots thought process yeah! If you’re ever in a cockpit and you get anywhere near stall in some of these airplanes the stick starts shaking and sometimes there’s a stick pusher and actual stick moves forward. There’s all kinds of buzzers and sounds and things going off. It’s a lot and if you haven’t trained for that or been through it once it seems like there’s just too much to process in your brain simultaneously so it makes sense right. But if you’re sitting at your desk and you’ve got your cup of coffee and you’re designing a lightning protection system for this electronic system flight control system you want the light to come on when it’s not telling you the right thing that’s cool. But what are the lights that are gonna come on simultaneously? You know how do we handle that? That I think that’s the big question right now is like combinational errors like that crash in Russia yeah it’s all bleeding back to that same sort of thing.
Dan: Yeah it’s funny in the baseball world because I have
you know I have a background on baseball yeah they turn that sped up and that
happens when you know you see a guy debut in the big leagues and he’s played
that game his whole life but now there’s more fans, there’s certain bright
lights. It’s a very different environment and suddenly your mind is racing and
you can’t focus on any one thing very well and you can’t do the thing that
you’ve been doing your whole life very well. So it’s like that same thing in a
cockpit you have to suddenly make all these decisions and all these different
pieces of stimuli and feedback or something you know beeping at you flashing at
you and now you go “this was an unknown why is the plane doing this?”
That seems like a lot of really important decisions to have to make in a short
time.
Allen: Yeah and it’s called we call it flying by the seat of your pants and that’s in the sort of the pilot lingo of what happens you get definitely sped up right and if you do not have that sense of experience you start to fly by the seat your pants which is exactly the wrong thing to do you start to feel things. Like how does the airplane feel I can feel it accelerated I can feel a decelerating I can feel them going up I can feel it go down. All those sensors are baloney all right. Your brain is telling you wrong stuff and it comes down to being able to sort through that and figure out the things that you need to focus on and dump on all the rest. That’s a skill and in sports and in piloting and driving a car and some in some of these tests accidents that have happened. It’s a skill. It’s a skill set and you need to develop it and it takes time to do it and I think you’re gonna see a lot more in terms of training to do that thank goodness.
Dan: Yeah reminds me of the scene in “Airplane” you
know that classic movie where I mean there’s so many things you could reference
at this moment but I just love when Leslie Nielsen opens the door and says “Just
wanna remind you we’re all counting on you” Thanks, thanks. Needed that.
Thanks for the old shot of pressure. Yeah that movie is a gem.
Allen: It’s just like that right I mean if you’re in any sort of new situation or in a new sort of environment, your brain isn’t necessarily the right tool. Especially relying on some of your senses to tell you the truth just may not be the right thing on an airplane and that’s one of the early skills.
Dan: Well that’s why I think one of the you know people it’s a really hot button issue where people are thinking about the future of self-driving cars. And you know my buddy who’s very much intent on the Tesla bandwagon he’s like “I’m gonna be when the first ones get a self-driving car out” and initially I was like ah I don’t know if I want to I think a lot of people are like I don’t want to put my life in the hands of the a machine, but then when you’re really starting to think about it and how fast they can make very complex decisions compared to someone who’s easily distracted, who gets emotional, who’s you know humans have a lot of other you know things that get in the way of a good decision. And then you think “oh yeah you know what if this if this machine driving a car or an airplane has double triple redundancy, it can process all these complex things way faster than I can, I’m probably safer putting my hands in it rather than my own decisions.”
Allen: Yeah I think there’s two schools of thought on that right now and I think you see it in two different companies. I think Boeing has historically relied on pilots and pilot training to do things. Airbus has tended to take automation as the way to do it and I’m not sure there’s any particularly right answer there. I know Steve Wozniak with Apple talks about there’s no robot that can make me a cup of coffee. I can walk into my house and make me a cup of coffee. Yeah that’s right. Some of the most simplistic things in the world that we do all the time as humans are very difficult to automate. And I kind of wonder if we’re gonna be in that similar situation with some of these newer aircraft designs as we go through because there is a human element to it. There’s a there’s a lot of functionality in the human being which isn’t necessarily in the computer so I kind of wonder how that’s all gonna work out but we’re gonna find out. I think that’s the thing over the next couple of years are going to find out because the Teslas of the world are not going away and all the automated things are not going away. So it’s gonna be interesting to kind of watch this go down.
Dan: Yeah and we’ll get into a lot of those topics here on
the show so Allen I appreciate you, a great first episode!
Allen:Yeah thanks Dan
Dan: We are through episode number one so for you out there
listening thank you for listening.
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